Piraci atakują!Rozmowa z szefami Międzynarodówki Partii Piratów

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Kto w jednej chwili, legalnie może nam odciąć dostęp do internetu i jak darmowe ściąganie plików wzbogaca artystów – opowiadają Gregory Engels i Jerry Weyer, szefowie Międzynarodówki Partii Piratów.

Dokonywanie napaści w celach rabunkowych i łamanie praw autorskich – to tylko niektóre fragmenty definicji „piractwa”. A wy bez wahania nazywacie swoją organizację Partią Piratów. Czy to znaczy, że jesteście „partią złodziei”?

Bardziej utożsamiamy się z definicjami typu „darmowe korzystanie z kultury i wiedzy w internecie”. Rzeczywiście, kiedyś piractwo kojarzyło się z działalnością przestępczą w sieci, ale obecnie, pewnie też za sprawą Johnny’ego Deppa w „Piratach z Karaibów”, pirat ma bardziej pozytywne konotacje. Coraz więcej osób widzi, że piraci to nie złodzieje, ale zwykli ludzie, którzy po prostu chcą cieszyć się dostępem do dóbr kultury i walczą z postrzeganiem ich jako internetowych przestępców. Nie zapominajmy też, że nazwa wywodzi się z greckiego „peirates” i znaczy „atakujący”. A to właśnie my! Chcemy zaatakować polityków myślących w starym stylu.

Znamy też filmowy stereotyp piratów – sympatycznych zawadiaków, niesłusznie ściganych przez złego księcia. A kim wy jesteście: komputerowymi maniakami, prawnikami-idealistami, niespełnionymi artystami?

Do naszej partii należą ludzie z różnych środowisk. Oprócz idei łączy ich dobre wykształcenie. To zapaleni komputerowcy, artyści, prawnicy, naukowcy. Jeśli chodzi o władze, to Gregory jest konsultantem w branży IT, a Jerry studiuje jeszcze prawo europejskie.

I jak to się stało, że zawinęliście do portu i założyliście partię?

Organizacje non-profit mogą jedynie próbować wpływać na społeczeństwo i polityków. Założenie Partii Piratów opierało się za przekonaniu, że tylko przeniesienie naszych postulatów na poziom polityczny może rozwiązać problemy, którymi się zajmujemy.

A skąd bierzecie pieniądze na waszą działalność? Rozumiem, że nie organizujecie napadów…

Nie, to nie w naszym stylu. Nie mamy żadnych sponsorów, jeśli potrzebujemy pieniędzy, zwracamy się o nie do indywidualnych darczyńców, żeby wsparli finansowo konkretne działania. Każda z ponad dwudziestu krajowych Partii Piratów ma własny system darowizn i składek, w zależności od tego, na co pozwala miejscowe prawo.

Jakie są wasze pomysły na ulepszanie świata?

Główne postulaty Partii Piratów to zmniejszenie społecznej inwigilacji, większa ochrona danych osobowych i przystosowanie prawa autorskiego do nowych technologii. Dlatego propagujemy takie idee jak Creative Commons czy Open Source. Oprócz tych stałych punktów, krajowe partie piratów mają jeszcze swoje własne, zależne od lokalnych tematów dyskusji politycznej.

Czy możecie krótko wyjaśnić na czym polegają wspomniane idee wolnego oprogramowania?

Open Source daje użytkownikom możliwość dowolnego modyfikowania aplikacji komputerowych i kontroli nad nimi, a także dzielenia się z innymi użytkownikami efektem swych działań. Z kolei Creative Commons, czyli zasada na której opiera się na przykład Wikipedia, pozwala na dzielenie się rozmaitymi treściami, zamiast monopolizować dostęp do informacji. Obie idee bardzo wspieramy, bo opierają się na wolności i możliwości wyboru.

Na czym koncentrujecie swoją działalność?

Oprócz lobbowania wśród polityków, by zmienili prawo, organizowania demonstracji i brania udziału w rozmaitych dyskusjach społecznych, staramy się po prostu nagłaśniać sprawę. Na przykład niemiecka Partia Piratów jest stale obecna w mediach, dzięki czemu nasze postulaty docierają do świadomości społecznej. Między innymi dlatego podczas ostatnich wyborów parlamentarnych tamtejsi piraci zdobyli aż dwa procent głosów. Zresztą to właśnie wtedy my sami zainteresowaliśmy się ruchem pirackim. Widać więc, że nasze działania mają realny wpływ na społeczeństwo. Dlatego chcemy regularnego udziału w wyborach na szczeblach krajowych i do Parlamentu Europejskiego.

Ale do realnego wpływu na wyniki wyborów w różnych krajach jeszcze długa droga.

To prawda. Dlatego teraz stawiamy na jak najszerszą akcję informacyjną i udział w dyskusji publicznej.

Czym w takim razie Partia Piratów różni się więc od zwykłej organizacji pozarządowej?

Międzynarodówka Partii Piratów jest organizacją pozarządową! Działamy właśnie jako NGO, wspierając Partie Piratów w różnych krajach. Ponieważ nie ma czegoś takiego jak wybory międzynarodowe, PPI nie może w nich uczestniczyć, wspieramy więc partie krajowe. Z drugiej jednak strony jesteśmy „międzynarodówką” – choć sami stanowimy organizację pozarządową, to wszyscy nasi członkowie należą do partii politycznych. Nie mamy zatem takiej niezależności jak typowa organizacja pozarządowa, bo wspieramy pewien ruch polityczny.

Możecie podać jakieś konkretne przykłady waszych działań?

Przykładów inicjatyw PPI jest wciąż mało, bo oficjalnie powstaliśmy w kwietniu 2010, co znaczy, że dotąd skupialiśmy się na tworzeniu struktur. Ale mamy już za sobą kilka konferencji – sami zorganizowaliśmy w kwietniu zjazd założycielski, w którym wzięło udział 50 Piratów z 25 krajów, ale też staramy się brać udział we wszystkich imprezach, na których mowa jest o prawach autorskich. Nasz punkt widzenia tłumaczyliśmy między innymi na dużej Europejskiej Konferencji Wolności w Mediolanie, staramy się również o członkostwo w roli obserwatora przy Światowej Organizacji Własności Intelektualnej – World Intellectual Property Organisation (WIPO). Ważnym narzędziem, którym się posługujemy, jest „papuga”, czyli internetowa platforma wymiany informacji prasowych. Przedstawiciele poszczególnych partii piratów wymieniają się artykułami na interesujące nas tematy, które publikowane są w mediach krajowych, dzięki czemu wszyscy są na bieżąco z tym, co dzieje się na świecie. „Papugę” można znaleźć na stronie: http://parrot.pp-international.net.

Wróćmy do waszych pomysłów. Jak rozumiem, zmierzają one do zmian w prawie międzynarodowym dotyczącym internetu.

Szczerze powiedziawszy, choć sam internet nie ma granic, to nie istnieje jeszcze coś takiego jak międzynarodowe prawo internetowe. Próbuje się je tworzyć w różnych krajach, ale rozwiązania, które proponują tradycyjne partie, są niesatysfakcjonujące, bo nie dają sieci swobody. Problem ograniczenia wolności w internecie dotyczą milionów ludzi na całym świecie i według nas nie da się ich rozwiązać jedynie na szczeblu krajowym.

Rozumiem, że mowa o reżimach niedemokratycznych.

Wbrew pozorom nie tylko. Rzeczywiście w Chinach, Iranie, czy Korei Północnej internet jest filtrowany. Użytkownicy mają ograniczony dostęp do sieci, a z wielu stron po prostu nie mogą korzystać. Jednak na liście krajów z najgorszym prawodawstwem dotyczącym internetu umieszczamy również takie kraje jak Francja czy Wielka Brytania, w których można ni stąd, ni zowąd odciąć komuś dostęp do sieci bez wytoczenia mu procesu o łamanie praw autorskich.

Nie wierzę!

Ależ tak! W tych krajach obowiązuje tzw. Three Strikes Law, czyli prawo trzech przestępstw. Innymi słowy: do trzech razy sztuka. Oznacza to, że internauta po otrzymaniu dwóch ostrzeżeń, że łamie prawa autorskie, na przykład ściągając z sieci piosenkę, za trzecim razem zostaje odcięty od internetu i przez pewien czas nie ma możliwości wykupienia żadnego dostępu do sieci, za żadne pieniądze. I żeby było jasne: to nie dzieje się po prawomocnym wyroku sądu, ale niejako automatycznie.

Ktoś może powiedzieć, że to uzasadnione– jeśli ktoś ewidentnie złamał prawo, to ważna jest prewencja, a uruchamianie machiny sądowej nie jest potrzebne…

Widać, że nie zdaje sobie pani w pełni sprawy, jak działa społeczeństwo sieciowe. Internet stał się podstawowym źródłem informacji i komunikacji dla milionów ludzi. Prawo autorskie jeszcze się do tego nie przystosowało, ale trudno winić za to internautów. Podobnie jak za to, że chcą się dzielić dobrami kultury ze swoimi znajomymi i że robią to właśnie przez internet.

Chcecie zatem swobodnego przepływu wszelkich danych w internecie, ale czy zadajecie sobie pytanie, kto będzie za to płacił?

Spora część treści internetowych nie jest przeznaczona na sprzedaż. Tak jest na przykład z klipami umieszczanymi na You Tube – większość z nich umieszczają w serwisie zwykli ludzie, którzy po prostu chcą się podzielić z innymi swoją twórczością. Mimo to można zarabiać nawet na treściach, które zostały stworzone po to, żeby przynosiły zyski, a użytkownicy korzystają z nich za darmo. Dowodzą tego liczne, niezależne badania –  np. brytyjskiego Demosu, które w ubiegłym roku publikowała BBC. Pokazują one, że ci, którzy nielegalnie ściągają muzykę, wydają na zakup legalnych plików muzycznych dwa razy więcej niż ci, którzy tego nie robią. Mechanizm zawsze jest ten sam – darmowe treści to sposób na dotarcie do przyszłych klientów, artyści mogą na tym tylko zyskać. Proces zmiany podejścia do swobodnego przepływu treści internetowych wciąż się dokonuje i inteligentne firmy już starają się na tym zarobić.

A co z książkami czy archiwami telewizyjnymi?

One również – podobnie jak telewizja czy zdjęcia – już są oferowane internautom za darmo. I to, co nas absolutnie nie dziwi, z wielkim sukcesem. „Stary” sposób wydawania i redagowania książek czy produkcji muzyki to już przeżytek. Długo można by mówić o artystach, którzy odnieśli sukces nie pomimo, ale właśnie z powodu tego, że internauci wymieniali się między sobą plikami z ich twórczością. Należą do nich między innymi zespół Nine Inch Nails, który w ten sposób sprzedał miliony albumów,  Paulo Coelho, który zgadza się, by czytelnicy wrzucali do sieci całe jego książki, czy niskobudżetowy film „Ink”, pokazywany w kinach na całym świecie, po tym jak zdobył popularność dzięki milionom ściągnięć z internetu.

Ale wielkie wytwórnie jakoś nie mówią o was z sympatią…

Fakt, często się zdarza, że wyzywają nas od kryminalistów, ale to dlatego, że kurczowo trzymają się dawnych modeli biznesowych i nie obchodzą ich prawa klientów.

A co z dziennikarstwem? Nie wydaje wam się, że zupełnie swobodny przepływ newsów spowoduje spory chaos informacyjny? Wyprodukowanie newsa, czyli wysłanie w dane miejsce dziennikarza, który sprawdzi, jakie są fakty, i zatrudnienie redaktorów, którzy zredagują tę informację, kosztuje.

Tylko wolna, niezredagowana informacja jest w pełni bezstronna. Gdyby ludzie mieli szansę czytać źródła, z których korzystają dziennikarze, sami oddzieliliby fakty od fikcji. Gdyby wszystkie informacje były ogólnodostępne, czytelnicy sami mogliby wyrabiać sobie opinie. W Niemczech na początku XIX wieku, gdy prawa autorskie były tam nieuregulowanie, dorobek intelektualny i kulturalny kraju był dziesięć razy większy niż w Anglii i Francji, gdzie istniał już system kontroli praw autorskich.

A nie boicie się, że gdy nie będzie instancji kontrolnych nad przepływem informacji, serwisy informacyjne będą wyglądały jak strona Wykop.pl albo Digg.com, gdzie jedynym kryterium wagi danego newsa jest klikalność?

Rzeczywiście może się tak stać. Pod warunkiem jednak, że wchodzisz tylko na takie strony jak Digg.com, a nie odwiedzasz serwisów informacyjnych, blogów czy portali społecznościowych. Dziennikarstwu nie grozi śmierć, choć na pewno zmieni się sposób jego funkcjonowania. Część ludzi woli surowe dane, inni komentarze, a jeszcze inni streszczenia i analizy. Dobrym przykładem jest tu reakcja na opublikowanie przez serwis Wikileaks słynnego „Pamiętnika z wojny afgańskiej” (Afghan War Diary). Część ludzi przegryzła się przez całą dokumentację, ale wielu zadowoliło się streszczeniami i objaśnieniami w „Der Spieglu”, „Guardianie” czy „New York Timesie”. Ważne, by dać ludziom możliwość wyboru.

Czy jest dla was jakaś granica, gdzie kończy się ta swoboda wymiany danych?

Właściwie nie. Kultura jest po to, by dzielić się nią ze światem, a nie, żeby zamykać ją na cztery spusty gdzieś w podziemiach Disneylandu. Generalna zasada jest taka: im więcej swobody, tym lepiej. Oznacza to brak opłat i brak ograniczeń w używaniu danych, w tym także blokad DRM.

Co to za blokady?

DRM, czyli zarządzanie prawami cyfrowymi, to system oparty na kryptografii, który ma tak zabezpieczać dane elektroniczne, by nie  były wykorzystywane w sposób sprzeczny z wolą wydawcy. Jesteśmy mu całkowicie przeciwni. Użytkownicy powinni móc wykorzystywać dane tak, jak chcą.

A więc całkowita swoboda? A co z pornografią i pedofilią?

Trudno ograniczać pornografię, bo to pojęcie trudne do zdefiniowania. W każdym kraju i kulturze  znaczy zupełnie co innego, więc ciężko regulować ją prawem. Natomiast jeśli chodzi o pedofilię sprawa jest jasna –  dziecięca pornografia nie powinna być publikowana ani online, ani offline. Dlatego walczymy o natychmiastowe usunięcie takich treści z sieci. Jesteśmy też przeciwko pomysłom, które jedynie zamiatają ten problem pod dywan, czyli na przykład przeciwko blokowaniu treści pedofilskich zamiast trwałego usunięcia ich z internetu.

Czy macie jakąś wizję przekształceń społecznych i zmian w sposobie myślenia, które może spowodować takie podejście do internetu i swobodnej wymiany danych?

Zmiany, jak to zmiany, zwykle zachodzą wolno. Ale już je widać, także na poziomie społecznym. Na przykład wielu ludzi nie patrzy już na kopiowanie plików mp3 jak na kradzież. Starsze pokolenie polityków dorastało w świecie bez komputerów i internetu, więc często ma problemy nawet ze zrozumieniem najprostszej idei „kopiuj-wklej”. Na szczęście nasza generacja widzi już pożytek z rozwoju technologicznego. To daje pewność, że w ciągu następnych dziesięcioleci nasze „pirackie” idee po prostu podbiją świat.

Rozmawiała Milena Rachid Chehab

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