Artysta zawsze jest sam i państwu nic do niego

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Rozmowa z Grzegorzem Kowalskim

O grze artystów z państwem i rynkiem finansowym opowiada Grzegorz Kowalski, artysta, profesor warszawskiej ASP.

Jacek Tomczuk: Kiedy artysta traci na kontaktach z władzą?

Grzegorz Kowalski: Nie ma tu zasad, każdy przypadek rozpatruję indywidualnie.

JT: A może w ogóle nie traci?

GK: Oczywiście istnieje pogląd, że sztuka nie powinna mieszać się do polityki, a na aliansie artystów z władzą zawsze tracą ci pierwsi, ale nie zgadzam się z takim postawieniem sprawy. W XXI wieku artyści są bardziej zależni od rynku niż od polityki i to on jest dla nich prawdziwym zagrożeniem. Galerie żyjące ze sprzedaży prac przestały interesować się tym, co myślą artyści, co chcą wyrazić swoimi pracami, są zainteresowane sztuką wyłącznie jako produktem, którym się handluje. Mówiąc precyzyjniej, produktem przestał być już obraz, rzeźba czy instalacja – stał się nim artysta, który podpisuje je swoim nazwiskiem i dlatego mają taką, a nie inną cenę. Niedawno Katarzyna Kozyra opowiadała mi o biennale sztuki w Pusan w Korei Południowej. Miała tam spotkanie z ludźmi, którzy mówili jej jak powstają takie produkty. Były to osoby, które nie miały studiów artystycznych, po prostu galeria postanowiła wykreować artystów: z menedżerów, inżynierów…, którzy będą produkować coś, co potem da się sprzedać.

JT: W końcu pieniądze od zawsze towarzyszą sztuce i artystom, jako zapłata, zachęta, mecenat.

GK: Ale nigdy nie miały tak destrukcyjnego wpływu. Parę miesięcy temu uczestniczyłem w biennale w Carrarze, którego kuratorem był Fabio Cavallucci, nowy dyrektor warszawskiego Centrum Sztuki Współczesnej. Rozmawiałem tam ze spadkobierczynią bardzo prestiżowego zakładu rzemieślniczego, który od XIX wieku wytwarza dzieła sztuki, czyli przekuwa gipsowe projekty w rzeźby z prawdziwego marmuru. Opowiedziała mi o swoich dylematach: z jednej strony chce utrzymać firmę, którą założył jej pradziadek, z drugiej ma ambicję, by podejmować się zadań, nieschodzących poniżej oczywistego dla niej poziomu artystycznego. A dziś musi produkować gówna. Pokazała nam żółwie, które zamówił u niej belgijski artysta Jan Fabre. Ale on ich nie wyrzeźbił w gipsie, po prostu poszedł do sklepu, kupił plastikową zabawkę, zrobił z niej odlew i tyle. Teraz jej pracownicy wykuwają te żółwie w marmurze, Fabre je sygnuje, a galerie już czekają. To sprowadzenie sztuki do marketingu, ekonomii, jest destrukcją sztuki jako nośnika treści ważnych dla widzów i artystów. Takiego artysty jak Fabre nie mogę poważnie traktować – zepsuł go rynek, a nie polityka czy władza.

JT: Jeśli nie rynek, to państwo. Państwo potrzebuje artystów, ma swoje cele i dużo pieniędzy na ich realizację. Co dla twórcy oznacza związek z państwem?

GK: Ja uważam, że prawdziwy artysta zawsze będzie sam: z problemami finansowymi, egzystencjalnymi, metafizycznymi. Państwu nic do tego. Oczywiście jest zainteresowane, by mieć akademie, profesorów, muzea, galerie, wielkie imprezy, na tym buduje swój prestiż. To interes państwa. Interesem artysty jest dostać forsę na realizację projektu.

Ale to nie znaczy, że sztuka w służbie władzy automatycznie się wyjaławia, grzęźnie w poprawności politycznej, przestaje być eksperymentem, że zachodzi tu jakieś złowrogie ubezwłasnowolnienie twórcy. W dzisiejszej relacji państwo–artyści czuję raczej jakąś taniochę, cwaniacką grę po obu stronach – ona nie ma nic wspólnego z mecenatem z prawdziwego zdarzenia. Jeżeli Medyceusze w XVI wieku inwestowali w sztukę, to była to inwestycja na wieki, do dzisiaj florentczycy z niej korzystają. Wątpię, by współcześnie którykolwiek z ministrów kultury w dowolnym państwie świata myślał, co z tego, na co daje pieniądze, zostanie za 50 lat. Choć we Francji odchodzący prezydenci wybudowali bibliotekę i muzeum.

JT: Na czym polega dzisiaj gra artysty z państwem?

GK: Formuła pracy na zlecenie jest stara jak sama sztuka. Za zleceniem zawsze idą jakieś założenia ideowe czy funkcjonalne, proces twórczy zostaje obciążony myśleniem o finalnym dziele. Dla odmiany, gdy artysta siedzi sam w studio i pracuje tylko dla siebie – nie martwi się o takie sprawy, oddaje się całkowicie poszukiwaniu, widzi raczej drogę niż cel.

Dam przykład nie zupełnie na temat współpracy z państwem, ale ze społecznym komitetem, reprezentującym potężny ruch społeczny. Na fali pobudzenia narodowego w 1980 roku wziąłem udział w konkursie na projekt pomnika upamiętniającego masakrę robotników w Gdyni w 1970 roku. Miałem wątpliwości, czy wchodzić w taką bieżączkę, ale byłem podniecony strajkami, „Solidarnością”, czułem, że jestem rzecznikiem jakiejś większej racji, może nawet wykonawcą woli ludu. W mojej koncepcji pomnik miał przybrać formę ulicy, która „staje dęba”, a na jej szczycie płonie prawdziwy ogień. Miałem wrażenie, że uczestniczę w jakimś wydarzeniu o wymiarze publicystycznym, politycznym, ale jednocześnie panuję nad formą. Komitet nie zaakceptował koncepcji. Nasz zespół zaproponował ulicę zamieniającą się w wyrzeźbiony tłum, czyli czystą anegdotę. To już było artystycznie niedobre, lecz wciąż można było nadać temu interesującą formę. Wygraliśmy konkurs, ale w którymś momencie okazało się, że projekt, który podobał się stoczniowcom, czyli najważniejszym dla mnie ludziom, którzy przeżyli tamte wydarzenia, nie zostanie zrealizowany. Ktoś zdecydował inaczej. Dopiero po latach, jadąc kolejką i patrząc na pomnik, który stanął, a przedstawia wielki krzyż obwieszony 17 mniejszymi, zrozumiałem, na czym polegał błąd. Po prostu w naszym projekcie nie było krzyża. Historycznie rzecz biorąc robotnicy w 1970 roku nieśli na czele pochodu zabitego kolegę na wyrwanych drzwiach, i to był pochód gniewu a nie manifestacja religijna. Na słynnym zdjęciu widać w drugim czy trzecim szeregu osobę z krzyżem, bo to był rodzaj konduktu. Przypuszczam że projekt pomnika bez krzyża nie został zaaprobowany przez Kościół. Całe szczęście, bo dziś mogę tamtędy jeździć bez wstydu że zrobiłemprojekt koniunkturalny.

JT: Gardzi Pan zleceniami?

GK: Nie gardzę. Ważne, żeby mieć świadomość, że to jest tylko zlecenie. Każdy artysta odpowiada za siebie – to staram się przekazać swoim studentom. Artur Żmijewski zarzuca mi, że uczę języka sztuki, form i artysta wychodzący z mojej pracowni zna warsztat, nie uczę jednak postaw. A ja jestem ostatni, żeby robić jakąś indoktrynację – światopogląd to każdy musi sobie znaleźć sam. Choć oczywiście nie ukrywam swoich przekonań.

JT: Rozmawia Pan o nich na zajęciach?

GK: Oczywiście, kiedyś dyskutowaliśmy o aborcji. I znalazła się dziewczyna, która z wielką odwagą i zaangażowaniem broniła stanowiska Kościoła katolickiego. I ja to szanuję, nie próbowałem jej przekonać, że kobiety powinny mieć prawo do samostanowienia, o czym sam jestem przekonany.

JT: W jednym z wywiadów mówił Pan, że rolą artysty jest podważanie stereotypów. Ale czy są granice podważania stereotypów, szczególnie gdy artysta robi to na zamówienie instytucji państwowej?

GK: Każdy rząd, prawicowy czy lewicowy, jest zainteresowany utrzymaniem stereotypów, które służą jego interesom. Uważam tylko, że istnieją takie stereotypy, tabu, które utrudniają komunikację społeczną. I tutaj jest potrzebny ktoś, kto pierwszy je podważy, przekłuje balon. I to powinni robić artyści. Na marginesie to ciekawe, że Artur Żmijewski broni rynku sztuki, choć wydawałoby się, że on pierwszy powinien go podważyć. Jego zdaniem rynek pozwala artyście tworzyć i żyć. Nie dostrzega, że rynek niszczy świat sztuki, albo myśli, że go to nie dotyczy.

JT: Państwo nie jest zainteresowane sukcesem finansowym. Jednak czy nie oczekuje czegoś w zamian? Weźmy za przykład Biennale w Wenecji...

GK: W Wenecji pawilony narodowe kreują wizerunek państwa, mają zrobić dobre wrażenie, zwrócić na siebie uwagę świata, dlatego czasami wybierane są projekty szokujące. Pamiętam zakłopotanie Ministra Kultury i Dziedzictwa Narodowego Waldemara Dąbrowskiego w 2005 roku, kiedy oglądał „Powtórzenie” Artura Żmijewskiego i do końca nie wiedział, co o tym myśleć, czy to był właściwy wybór? Uspokoił się dopiero po biennale, kiedy okazało się, że ta praca działa. Tak więc państwo wydało kupę kasy, a w zamian wyrobiło sobie dobrą opinię na świecie (na przykład Philip Zimbardo zaprosił Żmijewskiego do San Francisco na dyskusję); dodatkowo po filmie zaczęła się w Polsce rozmowa o wykluczeniu społecznym… Żmijewski dla odmiany „promował” Polskę, bo tylko państwo mogło sfinansować projekt, na który nie stać było żadnej prywatnej galerii. I zrobił po prostu świetną pracę.

Parę lat temu Santiago Sierra zbuntował się przeciw temu mechanizmowi promocji państw przez artystów. Owszem, pojechał do Wenecji jako reprezentant Hiszpanii, ale nie zrobił nowej wystawy, pokazał pusty pawilon i śmieci po poprzedniej edycji. Do tego zamurował główne wejście, wpuszczał tylko tylnym i tylko widzów z paszportem hiszpańskim. Zagrał na nosie swemu rządowi i międzynarodowej publiczności.

To było działanie stricte polityczne, wymierzone w politykę Unii Europejskiej i państw takich jak Hiszpania wobec emigrantów, obcych. Sierra bardzo sprytnie odtworzył proces zamykania się w sobie sytych społeczeństw. Tylko ci, którzy mają „dobry” paszport, mają też dostęp do określonych dóbr, w tym przypadku symbolizowanych przez sztukę. Nie chcę być adwokatem Sierry, bo w wielu sprawach się z nim nie zgadzam, ale to wybitny przedstawiciel klanu artystów, którzy niszczą tabu. Jego problem polega na tym, że jest zależny nie tyle od polityki czy rządu, ile od rynku sztuki. Stał się osobistością, po którą się sięga, jeżeli potrzebny jest kontestator.

JT: Często krytyka danej instytucji tylko ją uwiarygodnia, to tak jakby instytucja mówiła: proszę, jaka jestem światła, skoro pozwalam się krytykować...

GK: Dlatego państwo na współpracy z niepokornymi artystami raczej nie traci. Są oczywiście twórcy, którzy mają taką cechę, że muszą pozostawać w bliskich kontaktach z władzą, niezależnie od systemu politycznego. Kiedyś nazywało się ich artystami dworskimi, w PRL-u też wisieli na klamce u ministra czy pierwszego sekretarza. Dziś Ministerstwo Kultury i Dziedzictwa Narodowego to nie jest dwór, pieniądze rozdzielają eksperci, organizowane są konkursy, działają ścisłe procedury. Dziś dwór jest w kurii, w Kościele nie ma konkursów, ekspertów, liczy się gust biskupa czy innego dostojnika.

JT: Czy artysta ulega modom?

GK: To epitet powtarzany przez samozwańczych obrońców prawdziwych wartości. Często, kiedy zobaczą coś nowego, mówią: to uleganie modom, prawdziwe wartości są po naszej stronie.

JT: Mówię o czymś innym, o koniunkturalizmie, wychodzeniu naprzeciw zapotrzebowaniu mediów, rynkowi.

GK: Jest takie zjawisko. Młodzi artyści żyją pod wielką presją sukcesu, ale cieszyć się nim może tylko garstka. No więc ci młodzi są naprawdę zdeterminowani, by zostać zauważeni i ulegają artystycznemu populizmowi. Widzę, jak szukają okazji, żeby kupiła ich dobra galeria. Jak powielają własne pomysły, które raz chwyciły. Ale każdy robi to na własny rachunek.

Są też łowcy grantów, którzy mają opanowany system pisania podań o kasę albo jeżdżą z rezydencji artystycznej na rezydencję. I rzadko z tego powstaje wartościowa sztuka, nowe rzeczy. Oni tak naprawdę nie tworzą niczego.

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