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Ciało przypomina niezwykłe pudełko z farbami, laboratorium, pole walki – mówi belgijski reżyser teatralny Jan Fabre.

W wielu performance’ach zadajesz sobie rany…

Tak, od 1978 roku rysuję własną krwią. Kiedyś, jako młody chłopak pojechałem do Brugii na wystawę mistrzów flamandzkich. Przeżyłem fizyczny szok – odkryłem performance, zanim w ogóle poznałem to słowo. Wróciłem do hotelu i zacząłem się ciąć. Krwawiłem. Wszystko mnie bolało. Później odkryłem, że wielu flamandzkich malarzy prymitywistów mieszało swoją krew z farbami. To zjawisko powinno się więc rozważyć w kontekście całej malarskiej tradycji. Do produkcji bieli używano kiedyś zmiażdżonych ludzkich kości. Te przykłady pokazują, że chodzi o naturalną jakość. Artysta wykorzystuje własne ciało, aby ją osiągnąć. Nasze ciało stanowi prawdziwą skarbnicę wiedzy. Jako artysta stawiasz często kroki instynktownie. Dopiero później dowiadujesz się, że nie jesteś pierwszym, który podejmuje jakieś działania.

Wykorzystujesz ciało, także płyny ustrojowe – to ważny element Twoich przedstawień. Co Cię w nich pociąga?

Interesuje mnie to, jakie płyny ustrojowe mają znaczenie polityczne, filozoficzne, społeczne. Żyjemy w społeczeństwie, w którym ludzie stali się bezwonni. A przecież pachniemy, pocimy się. Nie ma w tym nic złego. Kobiety mają okres, a na całym świecie menstruacja kojarzy się z błękitnym płynem w reklamie „Always”.

To oznacza, że wciąż żyjemy w społeczeństwie wielkich tabu. Krew menstruacyjna postrzegana była źle przez Kościół katolicki, ale z naukowego punktu widzenia jest czymś bardzo zdrowym – przejawem witalności. Stąd wzięły się moje badania – poszukuję odpowiedzi na pytanie, dlaczego krew jest czymś negatywnym dla większości ludzi? Jako młody człowiek fascynowałem się swoim penisem i spermą. Czy wiesz, czym jest sperma, kiedy obejrzysz ją pod mikroskopem? Jaka niezwykła biologiczna walka się tam toczy? To jak cały wszechświat! Zajmuję się tym, ponieważ w swojej istocie jesteśmy pięknymi zwierzętami. W naszej krwi, skórze, szkielecie, spermie i wodzie kryje się wielka wiedza. Dla mnie wszystko jest organiczne i bardzo naturalne. Gdy patrzysz na to z zewnątrz, myślisz, że wszystko jest brudne, prowokacyjne i dziwne.

Zresztą przyjrzyj się moim rzeźbom, przedstawieniom, które zrobiłem. Analizowałem szkielet, mięśnie, krew, spermę, mocz, łzy. Ciało przypomina niezwykłe pudełko z farbami, laboratorium, pole walki. Wszystko, co z niego pochodzi, jest bardzo istotne.

Twoja praca opiera się na improwizacji. Jak ewoluuje Twoja idea spektaklu, jak zmienia się początkowa koncepcja?

Na początku staram się zachowywać bardzo naiwnie. Mówię swoim aktorom, że nic nie wiem, choć wiem, jak zakończy się praca. Przypomina to trochę zabawę w ślepego, którego psy przewodnicy mają zaprowadzić w odpowiednie miejsce. Ślepy okazuje się jednak jasnowidzem. Zna miejsce, do którego prowadzą go psy. Zamykam oczy i wiem, jaka jest odpowiednia pozycja. Improwizacja jest jednak niezwykle ważnym narzędziem. Na przykład wąchający się nawzajem aktorzy – dzięki zapachowi aktorzy odkrywają się, poznają od stóp do głów. Improwizacja jest także narzędziem, które zaostrza wyobraźnię, ćwiczy fizyczny refleks. Jest zatem w większym stopniu treningiem dla nich niż dla mnie. Dzięki improwizacji aktorzy mogą uwierzyć, że odkryli coś sami. Są wtedy dumni i lepiej pracują – promieniują. To bardzo ważne, żeby aktorzy wierzyli, że są na scenie bohaterami antycznej tragedii. To jest piękne. Oczywiście ja także dużo się od nich uczę.

Do jakiego stopnia utrzymujesz kontrolę nad aktorskimi improwizacjami?

Jako artysta muszę być dyktatorem. To jedyny zawód, który pozwala mi nim być w kapitalistycznym społeczeństwie zachodnim. Najczęściej muszę mówić: „nie, nie, nie, nie, nie, nie, tak, nie, nie, nie, nie, nie, tak”. To ja ustanawiam zasady, tworzę strukturę. Ale pozwalam aktorom wychodzić poza mur, który tworzę. Oni prowadzą walkę ze strukturą, którą im narzucam. Jest to oś konfliktu, dramatu. Dzięki swojej sile i zdolności przekraczania samych siebie aktorzy uwalniają się ze struktury. Wtedy właśnie rodzi się teatr, dramat, piękno; wtedy widać, że przedstawienie żyje, że nabiera ciała i krwi. Jestem nikim bez moich aktorów. Ale i oni stają się piękniejsi, kiedy jestem dyktatorem. Nigdy jednak nie zmuszam ich do przekroczenia pewnych granic. Proponuję sytuacje, w których aktorzy – jeśli traktują swoją pracę poważnie – sami decydują się iść dalej. Każdy poważny artysta mierzy się z tą decyzją.

A sam przekraczasz granice? Nadal działasz jako performer…

Czasami przeprowadzam performance. Zawsze tylko raz – inaczej skończyłbym w szpitalu albo na posterunku policji. Ostatni performance zrealizowałem w Luwrze. Było to pięciogodzinne hommage dla Jacques’a Mesrine’a – słynnego gangstera, wroga państwa, który działał jako artysta w późnych latach 70. XX wieku. Mój performance dotyczył metamorfoz i ucieczki z największego więzienia Francji – Luwru.

Czy pracując z aktorem, szukasz jakiegoś indywidualnego gestu, ruchu od środka, czy pracujesz, używając pewnych klisz lub metody?

Nigdy nie mówię o metodzie, zawsze o linii przewodniej. Jestem ślepcem, a moje psy prowadzą mnie na właściwe miejsce. Mówię o linii przewodniej, ponieważ metoda jest zbyt dogmatyczna. Bardzo ważne jest to, żeby nauczyć aktora myśleć, używać wyobraźni. Moment, kiedy zaczynasz akceptować wyobraźnię jako narzędzie, jest momentem, kiedy otwiera się prawdziwość. Prawdziwość (nie prawda) zostaje osiągnięta przez koncentrację i wyobraźnię. Przypomina to uprawianie miłości. Chodzi o moment całkowitej koncentracji: wyobrażenie sobie czyjeś skóry, jej świadome, fizyczne lub metaforyczne penetrowanie. To działa w dwie strony – od środka na zewnątrz i z zewnątrz do środka. Powierzchnia jest istotna dla pracy aktora. Bez niej nie istniałoby wnętrze.

W swojej pracy często mówisz o aktorze „wojowniku piękna”. Co to znaczy?

Aktor – taki, którego nazywam „wojownikiem piękna” – jest kimś wyjątkowym, ponieważ z całej siły staje w obronie piękna. Myślę, że „wojownik piękna” musi podchodzić do swojej pracy bardzo poważnie. Sam dla siebie stanowi przedmiot badań. Kryje się w tym bardzo duże wyzwanie. „Wojownik piękna” musi poszukiwać terra incognita – pola, na którym traci jakikolwiek punkt odniesienia, zatraca samego siebie po to, aby odkryć własne korzenie, wejść w inny stan świadomości. Odkrywanie tych stanów jest poszukiwaniem piękna. Istnieje takie flamandzkie słowo „redeloosheid”, którego znaczenie obejmuje zarówno rozum, jak i jego przeciwieństwo. Ten nie-rozum pochodzi z wewnątrz – jest obszarem nieograniczonej przez żadne reguły anarchii, pasji i miłości.

A czym jest piękno, którego aktor poszukuje? Jak sam je rozumiesz?

Piękno jest dla mnie bardzo ważne. Potrzebuję go. To coś, co może istnieć poza jakąkolwiek ideologią i estetyką – je można bowiem wytworzyć. Piękno jest harmonijną, rozwibrowaną sekwencją niezależną od zasad etycznych i estetycznych. Jest wolnością. Przypomina motyla, który ulega zagładzie, gdy łapiesz go za skrzydła.

We współczesnym społeczeństwie europejskim zaawansowane technologie wpływają coraz bardziej na to, jak żyjemy. Jaki jest Twój stosunek do technologii i stosowania ich w teatrze? Twoja praca jest przecież bardzo organiczna.

Co wolicie: pocałunek komputera czy drugiego człowieka? „Drugiego człowieka”– oto moja odpowiedź. Nadal nie mam komputera i telefonu komórkowego. Z różnych powodów. Jednym z nich jest to, że lubię patrzeć ludziom w oczy. Lubię czuć ludzki zapach. Jesteśmy zwierzętami, które nawzajem się obwąchują. Telefony, iPody – wszystko to są cudowne narzędzia do komunikowania się, ale esencją pracy w teatrze, pisania, tworzenia jakiejkolwiek sztuki jest percepcja świata przez dotyk. Wszelka sztuka jest wytworem człowieka. Człowiek jest piękny – jeśli nie możesz go dotknąć, poczuć, powąchać, wiele tracisz.

W ostatnim spektaklu „Orgia tolerancji” (premiera w roku 2009) prezentujesz bardzo krytyczną postawę względem europejskiego społeczeństwa. Co dla Ciebie oznacza być Europejczykiem i jak wyobrażasz sobie przyszłość Europy?

Mówiąc szczerze, nie jestem Europejczykiem. Jestem bardzo młodym mężczyzną z Antwerpii – artystą prowincjonalnym. Jednocześnie dzięki temu prowincjonalizmowi jestem artystą uniwersalnym. Mówię, że jestem bardzo młody, ponieważ stawanie się młodym artystą zajmuje całe życie. Nie warto zajmować się systemami i strukturami politycznymi – tym czym UE zajmuje ludzi. Nie zapominaj, że w tym wszystkim chodzi o ekonomię. A siła ekonomii jest w swojej istocie mało interesująca dla artysty.

Ale staje się coraz bardziej znaczącym obszarem w naszym życiu. Wielkie korporacje coraz częściej współpracują z politykami, będącymi na szczycie władzy.

Przyjrzyj się wiekom średnim. Spójrz na Brugię. Była Nowym Jorkiem Europy. Tam pracowali wszyscy najważniejsi artyści, bo tam były pieniądze. Relacja między sztuką a kapitalizmem istniała zawsze. Dlaczego artystom zależało na pieniądzach? Ponieważ wiązało się to z jakością – ze stosowaniem najlepszych materiałów. Gdy piętnastowieczni artyści potrzebowali lapis lazuli – błękitnego kamienia potrzebnego do namalowania sukni Maryi – musieli udać się do Afganistanu. Na zdobycie kamienia potrzeba było sześciu miesięcy. Jego cena była horrendalna! Nic się pod tym względem nie zmieniło.

Aby robić to, co do niego należy i kreować piękno artysta musi wykorzystywać system. Dobry artysta jest zawsze świadomy czasów, w których żyje, stawia im opór. Nie mam nic przeciwko kapitalizmowi. Chodzi o to, aby korzystać z niego we właściwy sposób. Nie mam nic przeciwko pieniądzom. To, że korporacje stają się na całym świecie ważniejsze od polityków… cóż, podobnie było w XV wieku, kiedy od polityków ważniejszy był Kościół. Wtedy też chodziło o pieniądze. Tak było zawsze, ale musimy być sprytni. Aktorom i tancerzom, z którymi pracuję, powtarzam, że fakt, iż jesteśmy otoczeni przez różnego rodzaju ideologie nie oznacza, że nasza praca musi być nimi przesiąknięta. Nie muszę dostosowywać się do ideologii Opery Narodowej, w której pracuję. Mogę pozostać niezależny. Rysunek, który tworzę, trafia do muzeum lub galerii, a więc wchodzi w system pieniądza – ale nie oznacza to, iż jest nim naznaczony. Dobre dzieło zawsze przetrwa i będzie używane jako narzędzie do refleksji nad społeczeństwem i mierzenia się ze zmianami, jakie w nim zachodzą.

Twoją następną produkcją będzie „Prometheus Landscape II” (premiera planowana na styczeń 2011). W 1988 zrealizowałeś „Prometheus I”. Czy inspirujesz się tamtym spektaklem, czy będzie to coś zupełnie nowego?

Teatr grecki jest matrycą mojego myślenia o teatrze. Wszyscy bogowie i herosi antyczni są dla mnie bardzo ważni. Prometeusz był mężczyzną, który przyniósł ludzkości ogień. Czasami czuję, że jako artysta posiadam ogień i przekazuję go innym ludziom, innym artystom. Tworzymy drużynę, którą bardzo lubię. Pojawia się oczywiście pytanie o to, kim jest heros we współczesnym społeczeństwie. Żyjemy w świecie, w którym zabrania się używania ognia. W każdym pieprzonym muzeum czy teatrze nie wolno ci używać ognia. W tym sensie zabrania się także kreatywności. Myślimy o świecie współczesnym, o Prometeuszu, rozmawiamy o ogniu, ale nie możemy go rozpalić!

Rozmawiały Dorota Semenowicz i Katarzyna Tórz

Poznań, 30 czerwca 2010 roku

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